Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -
DMS2

DMS Templates are not dynamic

templates

  • Please log in to reply
26 replies to this topic

#1 glennyboy

glennyboy

    Advocate

  • Members

  • 254 posts
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 28 March 2014 - 11:18 AM

This post stems from an original observation on an earlier post here:-

 

http://forum.pagelin...e-on-each-page/

 

However I think this is so fundamentally important that it needs to be raised as a more direct topic and that is that DMS 2.0 'Templates' are not 'dynamic'. In a nutshell this means that whilst you can drag and drop canvas / section to a page a then create a new template the resultant template is completely fixed in every way, covering every section except those that pull the Wordpress Loop or are inherently dynamic because of Wordpress Core. 

 

To explain:-

 

Say I've created a lovely template that contains a canvas with a background image and flipper for post type 'posts'. Now common sense dictates that I wouldn't want to show the same content/post types on each and every page - under a normal Wordpress 'theme' (and over the years I have used and created many) you would expect such basic customisations out of the box. With DMS you simply can't achieve even basic changes like this. Each page under the same template is an identikit of the other. Make a content change on one page (in this example the background image or post type to say 'page') and the template is then updated to another. As I asked previously then just what is the point of Pagelines templates - surely they are just pages? Currently to achieve a basic change on a page (that uses a particular template) means that you actaully need to create multiple templates. That time wasted may be passable for a small site but a ridiculous waste of time for a larger one. A template should be a building block, set with 'defaults' which can then be overridden and thats what makes it a 'CMS'. 

 

Right now DMS is focused too much on Drag and Drop (which is great in itself), but not at all on the system as a true CMS. Indeed DMS is rapidly becoming the most inflexible CMS out there and Pagelines need to seriously address this.

 

 


  • jdbrasesco likes this

#2 Danny

Danny

    Is Awesome!

  • Moderators
  • 15848 posts
  • LocationManchester, UK
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 28 March 2014 - 01:10 PM

So what you want is to basically create a template with X sections and X settings. Then assign it to another page and change the settings of those sections, but have them only effect that page and not effect the template itself, meaning that the sections options will only be on that page and that page alone, not globally changed for the template?

 

Also, please be aware that DMS is not a CMS, Wordpress is a CMS. There is a huge difference.



#3 glennyboy

glennyboy

    Advocate

  • Members

  • 254 posts
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 28 March 2014 - 01:39 PM

Hi Danny

 

That is exactly what I would be looking for and to be honest would have expected. A 'template' is not 'fixed' in nature and should be flexible in respect of the content therein. Either that or all the sections in a template are 'dynamic' providing the same effect, but I'm guessing that would be harder to impliment. Other than a 'blog' or formatted custom post page I personally see little use in a template always serving up exactly the same content.

 

As discussed above say a template is initially set (or subsequently updated) then those are the template presets and the de facto default. You should then be able to modify each and every section to make the content on a specific page unique and yet still using the same 'template'. Remember that a template could be extremely complex and having to have multiple versions of the same template to achieve basic content  changes (perhaps as per my original post just a background image update) doesn't make any sense nor is it good workflow as where previosuly you could have updated one template you may now have to update a number of them.

 

Whilst DMS 1 had a problem with templates updating between pages automatically at least it could save unique content in each section on those templates. DMS 2 has now removed this.

 

In relation to DMS vs CMS I understand the difference (DMS is the vehicle for the CMS), but what I was highlighting is that DMS is a currently a retrospective move in relation to the management of 'content' which is a paramount concern and probably the most time consuming element of web construction.

 

I know I may be the first to voice this, but I'm sure loads of other developers will find exactly the same.



#4 GetMeWebDesign

GetMeWebDesign

    Advocate

  • Members

  • 524 posts
  • LocationSurrey, UK
  • Framework Version:developer
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 02 April 2014 - 08:53 PM

@Danny Does it not work like that? I set up templates. Then when using that template for a new page, I unlock it and then make the local changes. Hasnt been a problem from there, even though that page now has the tmeplate :None. Admittedly, if you wanted to make global changes to a template, then they would not affect those 'None'.

 

So that might not be enough for some... what if you were to use the other great tool... your own saved sections?

 

I have tested this.

  • First used a default template of Sample Page 1.
  • Then I created a page default template for Sample page 2, but unlocked and removed two sections
  • Then I created another page, Sample 3. Here I used a landing page template and added and created my own saved section.
  • All good so far. Pages 1 and 2 have a similar look but diff content and the latter missing 2 sections. The third different again
  • I went back to Sample page 1 and deleted a section and added my saved section. Sample page 2 does not change when the default template is saved
  • Finally I make a change to the saved section (adding a background image) and saved.
  • Sample page 3 now reflects that change to the saved section

In truth, if you can think logically, then you have all the functionality that you want and no problems (as long as you are not saving CSS on blog rolls! ;)

 

What do you think?


  • dsolano likes this

#5 glennyboy

glennyboy

    Advocate

  • Members

  • 254 posts
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 02 April 2014 - 09:05 PM

 

@GetMeWebDesign for me you answer whether this works in your first line. You using a template as a base and then unlocking and removing the universal link to the parent template. There is no logic in this, especially over a large site that keeps a universal layout (that could be complex), but requires customisation of content.



#6 GetMeWebDesign

GetMeWebDesign

    Advocate

  • Members

  • 524 posts
  • LocationSurrey, UK
  • Framework Version:developer
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 02 April 2014 - 09:32 PM

@glennyboy. so you are saying that you only want one template but able to change all the content on each page, yet want to be able to update all of this globally? I am a bit confused, but it would appear that you should template each page (to prevent global changes) and use your custom saved sections where you need to have global changes? 

 

Just a matter of opinion, of course. Personally, I really like the flexibility coupled with ease



#7 glennyboy

glennyboy

    Advocate

  • Members

  • 254 posts
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 03 April 2014 - 08:39 AM

No I'm not saying that. Having 'one template' of course negates the purpose of having templates. I want about 4-5 global templates that allow for local / section changes. That is how Wordpress 'Themes' work so I'm surprised you are happy with your take on the system that involves creating a universal template and then breaking it into a template that can't be updated - what you are doing is making 'pages' from broken templates, not using a unified template system to make updates.



#8 GetMeWebDesign

GetMeWebDesign

    Advocate

  • Members

  • 524 posts
  • LocationSurrey, UK
  • Framework Version:developer
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 03 April 2014 - 09:31 AM

@glennyboy. You misunderstand me. By using my own custom sections I can have the 4-5 global sections that will globally update whenever I change them. The templates can be set, but I unlock so that I can make local changes, but they retain the look of the "template" I originally used. If I wanted to, I could save each new one as a template (and yes that would be an unique template for a page) but I don't need to. They are not "broken" templates. They are templates but with local changes.

 

Custom sections are a bit like Header and footer, nav. They are global wherever you use them, but with the difference of header and footer, in that you choose where to have them rather than being truly global. I.E.:

 

Template 1 - custom section 1(CS1 for short); CS2; CS3;CS4

Template 2 - CS1; CS4

Template None (made from template 1) - CS1;CS2;CS4

Template 3 - CS4; CS5

Template None (made from template 3) - CS5

 

Although two of those templates have None assigned they both look like their parent template, bar the changes

 

Make a change to CS1 on any of your templates and the changes affect template 1, 2, None (made from 1)

make a change to CS4 and the changes affect template 2, None (made from 1) and 3

etc

 

However, if I really wanted to be safe, I could change the names of those 2 templates marked as none to their own template, much in the way that you give any page you create in wpadmin, a title. A bit of extra time? Not much, but I do grant you, that if you had a huge site with many pages, then that would lead to multiple templates



#9 glennyboy

glennyboy

    Advocate

  • Members

  • 254 posts
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 03 April 2014 - 10:00 AM

Hi @GetMeWebDesign

 

I did understand what you were saying and I still don't agree with the logic. if like me you are building large sites then you will probably want to keep the same layout and sections across multiple pages, but you also want to personalise each page = as I said above I don't want identikit pages. As per my original case I just want to change say a background image. Under your logic I create a master template and then on each page I unlock the section to make a local change. Yes I understand and knew that. So now lets say I have unlocked 10 pages or more..... The client then asks me to make a universal change to what they see as a single template. I'm now stuck with having to go back to those 10 pages to make a change when really I should just need to update a master template. Again what I don't want to have to do is create multiple templates to achieve a single goal - it just doesn't make sense nor is it a sensible work-flow.


Edited by glennyboy, 03 April 2014 - 10:06 AM.


#10 glennyboy

glennyboy

    Advocate

  • Members

  • 254 posts
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 03 April 2014 - 10:03 AM

also what about client selection of 'avaialble' templates in the Wordpress admin area? 'None' is not covered..


Edited by glennyboy, 03 April 2014 - 10:03 AM.


#11 GetMeWebDesign

GetMeWebDesign

    Advocate

  • Members

  • 524 posts
  • LocationSurrey, UK
  • Framework Version:developer
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 03 April 2014 - 10:10 AM

I do see your point, still if there is an area of canvas that has a background image that would be changed across the pseudo templates.,, save it as a custom, would be my response, a bit like the old pagelines framework. On the other point....What is the client in the backend wpadmin choosing templates anyway?



#12 glennyboy

glennyboy

    Advocate

  • Members

  • 254 posts
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 03 April 2014 - 10:31 AM

That's what I'm trying to avoid. Simple section changes/nuances shouldn't necessitate their own templates - templates should be kept to a core minimum. This is the same for any Wordpress 'Theme' (how many themes have you seen with over say 7 templates) - the theme provides standardised 'layouts' and content blocks (sections/canvas in our case) and then you plug in the customised content. This would cover, text, imagery, media, post types, background images etc. 

 

In relation to offering wpadmin choosing templates. As a professional web developer of course you want to give the user the same flexibility that you have created on their behalf - my clients demand this (especially within Wordpress). I feel that people are stuck on DMS as a Design system alone. DMS uses Wordpress and that is an awesome CMS. What DMS is doing is overriding the flexibility of Wordpress. It should have both Design and Content Control from both sides.

 

I'm sure you will find the current setup bad workflow sooner rather than later for these reasons.



#13 lars1968

lars1968

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 2 posts
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 18 April 2014 - 01:31 PM

Sorry to highjack this post. I am new to DMS and feel that it's very confusion to test DMS(1 - the free version from wordpress.org) first and later switch to DMS2 with basic concepts have changed. 

 

I'm lost to have individual templates for each categories (Page type category).

I.e.

/category/guides/

/category/features/

should have individual hero sections (or later individual sidebars).

 

Looks like that there is no way to have "customized" templates for each category?

No mater if my template was locked (initially) or unlocked: changing the "hero" content will change on all categories (/category/guides/ , /category/features/ etc.) and not only on those that I'm currently editing.

 

I ended up to create two templates: One for guides and one for features and tried to link those to the 

/category/guides/

/category/features/

pages. But it's impossible to do that? 
Maybe because category is ONE wordpress Page (and not two?).
This is confusing. Cause the DMS Editor makes me belive I can work this way?
 
Can anyone please point me into the right direction? (Do I have to create fake pages to achieve what I want - but how to pull posts onto them for one caregorie...?)
 
DMS looks promising to make WordPress a "real" CMS - but after failing with my initial tries I'm in doubt - especially DMS2 isn't open source anymore.  
 
Bonus question:
is covering dms(1) ,right?
Is there something like hat for dms2?


#14 GetMeWebDesign

GetMeWebDesign

    Advocate

  • Members

  • 524 posts
  • LocationSurrey, UK
  • Framework Version:developer
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 18 April 2014 - 01:37 PM

The simplest option is to create pseudo pages for each category you want and then pull content in with any of the many plugins from special recent posts/miniloops etc through some of the filtering plugins. You will then have the freedom to design the template exactly as you wish. If there is common sections between the templates then use custom sections to allow global changes amongst templates containing each of those custom sections


  • lars1968 likes this

#15 glennyboy

glennyboy

    Advocate

  • Members

  • 254 posts
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 18 April 2014 - 01:47 PM

Hi @lars1968

 

Glad you can join me on this crucial topic!

 

No, you are right that you cannot truly use DMS Templates or sections for customised content - neither is intrinsically 'dynamic' and as I noted above this is a major drawback of the current system. As @GetMeWebDesign the only way around this is to use plugins that drive dynamic content. We both have our own take on this, but for me it really negates all the other DMS sections other than 1 and that is the newly created PLNextBox that will be in your downloads if you have a developer license and I guess on a more limited side my own section 'ThumbNailer' that allows you to drag and Drop Post Thumbnails (which are on a per page/post basis). The PLNextBox plugin is created by @Simon_P (and initiated by myself) is in my opinion the most powerful DMS section as it allows you to add custom PHP. With custom PHP you can pull in Custom Field Content and any other manner of Wordpress content via PHP coding. Of course if you can't go down that road then you are totally snookered!


  • GetMeWebDesign and lars1968 like this

#16 amos

amos

    Member

  • Members

  • 12 posts
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 21 April 2014 - 02:35 AM

I am having same problems.  I am not sure why the fundamental concept of a template changed from Framework to DMS 1 to DMS 2.  A template is a template.  Now we have a mess of an interface with one templates content pulling through to other templates (I wish I was ONLY having the problems glennyboy is having).  I cannot even get separate templates from affecting each other.

How do you "unlock" and element in a template as was pointed out above?  In DMS 1 we had a setting for "global" or "local" which allowed us to do what glennyboy is asking for and quite frankly a simple and obvious request.

I don't know how much more I can spend trying to make DMS work.  Its a mess.  



#17 Danny

Danny

    Is Awesome!

  • Moderators
  • 15848 posts
  • LocationManchester, UK
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 21 April 2014 - 11:24 AM

@amos

@glennyboy

@lars1968

@GetMeWebDesign

 

If you (as you guys seem to be most effective by this) can provide in bullets (no walls of text) how the templating system can be improve, please reply here and I will bring to the devs attention.



#18 GetMeWebDesign

GetMeWebDesign

    Advocate

  • Members

  • 524 posts
  • LocationSurrey, UK
  • Framework Version:developer
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 21 April 2014 - 01:13 PM

I dont have any problem with it, but I do understnad some of the frustrations of those that do



#19 glennyboy

glennyboy

    Advocate

  • Members

  • 254 posts
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 23 April 2014 - 07:27 PM

 

Pretty simple:-

 

  • Templates global, but with local section/canvas toggle for global/local changes
  • Mater Template reset to revert a template to all 'Global' and override any local changes (guessing that a new template would have been created in this instance)

Therefore a master template is created, but each individual section can be unlocked to localise a change. If a new section is added then that update is reflected globally and can itself be unlocked for local changes. 

 

This would drake DMS a much more flexible framework



#20 arpowers

arpowers

    Founder

  • Administrators
  • 3271 posts
  • LocationSan Francisco, CA
  • Framework Version:2.3
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 23 April 2014 - 10:56 PM

Hey guys, 

I know the issue, so you'd like the ability to set local settings that will override the template but not unlock it? 

 

Ap







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: DMS2, templates