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#1 jmad

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 02:42 PM

When it comes to communication about some basic updates and changes it would be good for those to be detailed here in the forum.  For example, when DMS is updated to version 1.2 it would be good to see a list of changes here in the forums and how those changes could potentially impact the sites we have running DMS.  Also, for the most used WP plugins such as Contact Form 7, Gravity Forms, Yoast, ALL-in-One SEO, WooCommerce and certainly any section or plugin from the DMS store the DMS team should have tested and be able to share if the plugins/sections are compatible with DMS.  Especially since DMS doesn't offer a form plugin/section having compatibility is important and compatibility with WooCommerce goes without saying.   

 

At $30/month for a lifetime commitment this is something Pagelines as a company should be doing better than any other company offering a theme.  On Themeforest there are many theme providers that offer that type of information on their support sites almost immediately after a plugin release is done.  

 

 



#2 Danny

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 03:06 PM

HI,

 

One of our devs (Simon) usually posts on the forums a changelog of the latest version.

Also, when testing DMS beta patches, our beta team will only test numerous plugins, we can't test them all. I for one will never use ContactForm 7 as I don't like it, I prefer NinjaForms or GravityForms.

 

What I would highly recommend is you use something like MAMP or Nitrous.io and create a simple developing environment and use the latest commits version of DMS from GitHub. You should also follow the commits to see the changes made by our developers and contributors.



#3 jmad

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 03:18 PM

@Danny

 

Could you give a link to the commits.  Is the Beta of DMS 1.2 available to public yet?



#4 Danny

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 03:21 PM

Commits are here, you should be able to see them, as I am sure they're public - https://github.com/p...DMS/commits/1.2

 

In since 1.1.6 to 1.2, I think there has been over 600 commits.

 

In regards to the 1.2 beta, this is only available to the developer group at the moment, you could try contacting our helpdesk and see if they can give you access.

 

hello at pagelines dot com



#5 jmad

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 03:34 PM

@Danny

 

The commits don't actually tell users in a concise fashion what the changes are and how they impact our sites.  Good grief, is it that hard for Pagelines to just keep it's users updated?  You really expect each user to go through 600 commits.  Couldn't Pagelines summarize in a 4 or 5 paragraph post the most significant changes?  It would be nice to see Pagelines release DMS correctly...by that I mean release the version and it's up-to-date support documents and a list of significant changes all at once.  

 

Pagelines is a company with paying users and frankly they need to work on how they manage the processes, communication and updates that impact their users.  Pagelines has taken plenty of heat over this in comments on various blog reviews, even here in the forums.  

 

Users expect to know what they are paying for and the company should be providing that information.

 

Just pass it along.



#6 barkingsheltie

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 10:36 PM

My 2 ยข

 

I own a couple other professional frameworks, and I use them according to the site demands I have.

 

I purchased the DMS biz license, as I was/am intrigued by some of the features/benefits. 

 

One area of customer service that impresses me, is that both companies (for competing wordpress frameworks) routinely send out email messages when a change occurs in software, or other notable development. Additionally, blogs are updated on a regular basis. 

 

That seems to me, to be at the very least, the standard to which all software companies should aspire too. Perhaps Pagelines is slammed at the moment, but the effort to cast off a couple emails, blog notice that "were still here", wouldn't require Herculean efforts. 

 

It causes me enough concern, that I won't commit to using DMS on any important project, other than test sites, which is my current implementation. 

 

Again, what do I know, other than being one of your interested customers lobbying ignorant assumptions from the inter web bleachers!


Edited by barkingsheltie, 19 February 2014 - 10:37 PM.


#7 Simon_P

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 10:48 PM

When the next iteration is released there will be a changlog/post/whatever.

Im not going to make a forum post for each commit of our code.

The code is publicly available for you to look at if you wish.

Whats the point in making a huge announcement of 100s of changes for something that isn't released yet?

#8 jmad

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 11:26 PM

@Simon_P

 

I don't know that posting every change is important and I don't think that's what anyone was asking for especially not in the forums but having some idea of what to expect and plan for is important for your users especially the ones running client sites with the Framework.  A few reasons for keeping your customers updated are....

 

Because Pagelines has pulled the rug out from under it's customers before (Pagelines to DMS) and needs to rebuild customer faith in the product.  In reviews of your product there are some pretty harsh responses from burned users.  Major revisions make customers nervous in general and with Pagelines track record in not supporting previous features even more so.

 

Like @barkingsheltie mentioned, your competitors are keeping their clients informed it's just what businesses do because it makes sense.  If customers don't hear from a business they believe it's stagnating, having financial issues, doesn't care, is poorly managed or a combination of. 

 

Pagelines has left some pretty significant bugs unaddressed for many, many months (my personal annoyance was the broken parallax for others I think probably disappearing content as it's mentioned often in the forums, Post Pins duplicating content raises it's head occasionally).  Customers want to know these issues are being addressed and when, especially since in other Frameworks/themes disappearing content isn't normal and if parallax is a feature it usually works.

 

With DMS some of the Pagelines developers pulled out of the store, it didn't take too much thought to know there was probably some issues that arose that weren't cleared up well.  Again made customers nervous.  

 

Any good business realizes it's the customers that keep them in business.  

 

As developers you have to understand that your customers are building and running client sites off your Framework and those sites need to be reliable.  Having no updates from the developer, the Pagelines homepage not working in Firefox for Mac (mentioned this two days ago in forum and it still isn't working), the Headlines and Viewer theme Demos not working in your store (again mentioned in forum a day or so ago and still not fixed) all make the Pagelines team look like they don't know what they are doing.  Having your homepage not working or parts of your site significantly broken aren't things most clients would tolerate.  

 

Clearly there are a number of designer/developers that want to see this Framework be successful, make us/them happy and your customer base will grow or at the very lest be faithful and set new clients up on it either under their own plan or a personal or business plan.   I know Headway and Genesis are often the favorites of many but I personally just didn't enjoy Headway and Genesis takes more time.  To customize DMS it takes some CSS for certain but that's one of it's strengths is that it's not so weighed down with base options but can be extremely customized. 

 

It looks like v1.2 is going to offer some great new features and fixes.  I'd love to move sites over to DMS and build new client sites with it but it has to be reliable.  I know the DMS launch disaster probably set everyone back more than a few weeks and I think most of your customers felt bad for Pagelines but also a little concerned over technical skill considering it took so long for the recovery.  There was so much hype over the DMS launch and none over v1.2...odd.  

 

Reliable is the keyword.  Reliable product and reliable, routine communication.  



#9 Simon_P

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 11:44 PM

Those theme demo links were removed until the demos are fixed. Truth is that demo server is running bleeding edge 1.2 and the themes have not been updated.

DMS 1.x is still receiving updates and I do post update notifications in here/skype/email list.

We are working hard on 1.2 and it addresses most if not all bugs/issues in 1.1.x ALL commits that are compatible are back ported by myself and a new 1.1 version is released the latest being only a couple of weeks ago.
If a it isn't in 1.1 then it is simply not compatible code.

With regards to disappearing content we've never been able to reproduce this in 1.1 or 1.2. A lot of saving fixes are in 1.2 so thats probably why.

Every user has different hosting, different PC's, different antivirus, different browser plugins. Its impossible to replicate when we are provided with no clear info on how to reproduce a possible bug.

We are aware of the firefox issues. The ticket system has priority, I was informed as soon as a ticket was raised.

#10 jmad

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 12:15 AM

@Simon_P 

 

The demo links are still live...I just checked (the demo links were removed while I was writing this). Running your un-updated demo themes on bleeding edge 1.2 is a bad decision and I'd question the judgement of whoever made that call BUT it tells me a lot about what customers might be facing moving to v1.2 (menus and some functions won't work and in the case of Headlines the entire theme is broken).  What is Pagelines doing to help users migrate to v1.2 are there instructions about what it is going to break?  Pagelines can't possibly expect it's Developer customers to have to go update 20 sites, 50 sites, 200 sites....is that what Pagelines expects...that once a year it's clients are going to have to complete major updates to every site running DMS...especially just to correct bugs?  Is this PLs business plan and strategy?  Am I missing something here?  

 

 

Not sure what you mean by "commits that are compatible" but I've seen the updates to 1.1x and noted that when I've gone to do updates via WP admin that there is a list of changes included with the update and for a while there wasn't...so that is good. 

 

As far as the bugs go, I understand the different browsers and hosts make things difficult.  However, I don't understand why it takes so long for the bugs to be addressed when users in the forums are even providing Admin access to Pagelines staff to debug.  Even more, I don't understand how the Pagelines testing process lets so many glitches through...other Theme makers launch parallax with no issues on any browser and some even provide positioning and sizing/scaling options.

 


Edited by jmad, 20 February 2014 - 12:20 AM.


#11 Simon_P

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 12:25 AM

Apologies, the links are now removed. I was told they were now i done it myself ;)

by "commits that are compatible"
I meant commits that work in both branches are easy to backport.

A lot of 1.2 commits are not compatible with 1.1 as the code has changed too much.

You dont *have* to update all 200 sites to 1.2 if thats how many you have.

There will be an option to either stay on 1.1 branch, the normal updates will still happen nothing will change *or* install the PageLines Updater Plugin that uses a totally different update system that grabs the latest 1.2 for you. We left the choice down to you, there will be no forced updates.

#12 jmad

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 12:30 AM

Thanks for the information.  Moving forward is 1.2 now at the code quality that should sustain for at least two or three years and just be built upon, features added, etc?  Updater Plugin is that new?  Sounds like DMS is moving in the right direction.  

 

I'm looking forward to v1.2.  Thanks for answering the questions.

 

Cheers 



#13 barkingsheltie

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 08:02 AM

When the next iteration is released there will be a changlog/post/whatever.

Im not going to make a forum post for each commit of our code.

The code is publicly available for you to look at if you wish.

Whats the point in making a huge announcement of 100s of changes for something that isn't released yet?

 

My apologies. I should have said significant change. Most of us don't require/want the deep details pertaining to DMS day to day evolution. 

 

I suppose, as @jmad mentioned, the hype and chatter for DMS we observed during initial launch, fostered expectations for the same as time evolved. The relative lack of communication now, especially outside the forum (not support, but in general) is in sharp contrast. Are you saying that we should tag along on Github? That would be fair, I just didn't find this explicitly indicated. Some of the initial appeal touted the revolutionary aspects for DMS would be more appealing to those who weren't skilled programmers...

 

Mind you, my criticism isn't intended to be bitchy, negative, simply trying to reconcile what I see here, versus experience with other companies, etc. 

 

I definitely have customers who try my patience, and sometimes, :), but oh well, they pay the bills, and yes occasionally their isights & comments are helpful; at the very least, they tell me where they are coming from. 



#14 Danny

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 11:51 AM

@barkingsheltie - I would highly recommend tagging along on GitHub, its an awesome service.



#15 jmad

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 06:11 PM

@Simon_P

 

I started a site madsky.wpengine.com as a test build to see if using DMS to run live client sites that have many of the expected bells/whistles of modern sites.  I had made note of three major issues I'd encountered that were deal breakers for me basically because they are deal breakers for clients, I noted these issues and addressed here in the forum back in the fall of last year. 

 

The issues were NavBar glitches, parallax broken (no photo size corrects error and fixes don't always work), Rev Slider issues with text position on window resize and phone/tablet version replicating the same issue on first resolution.

 

I added these three features to a test build madsky1.wpengine.com and all three features are still broken.  Will these issues EVER get resolved in 1.1 branch or will users in fact have to upgrade to 1.2 in order for these to resolve?  What's taking so long to get these issues corrected?

 

I would love to be using DMS as my primary building tool because I think it's a great idea, I like the visual concept and think DMS can be one of the more flexible solutions and least cumbersome for folks that know some CSS.