Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Why Abandon Framework?

pagelines framework

  • Please log in to reply
19 replies to this topic

#1 rpacker

rpacker

    Super Member

  • Members
  • 226 posts
  • LocationWashington, DC
  • Framework Version:2.3.5
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 18 October 2013 - 03:31 PM

I saw an interesting discussion from a Framework user not happy with DMS, and concerned about the future of Framework. I am one of those users and I would have liked to repond, except I don't have access to that forum.

 

So I am writing here and wondering how many Framework users there are out there who do not want to abandon it and move on to DMS. I have been using various iterations of Pagelines for several years and have invested time, money and effort into learning the system. I have tried DMS and am not at all comfortable about making the switch. I prefer to stay with Framework, or find other another theme company all together.

 

It seems to me that DMS is so different that it should be a separate product, and that Pagelines should continue to develop Framework. I am also sad to see that everything that came with Framework, including tutorials and particularly community support, now requires a paid subscription.

 

Perhaps there are enough Framework users out there who do not want to upgrade to DMS, that collectively we could convince Pagelines to continue developing Framework for those customers who are happy with it and do not want to take the plunge into DMS. And maybe there are enough DMS users who would like to come home again to Framework.

 

Your sincerely

 

Randall Packer

 


  • imagineutopia likes this

#2 greenfly

greenfly

    Advocate

  • Members

  • 3268 posts
  • LocationManchester, England
  • Framework Version:latest
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 18 October 2013 - 04:01 PM

Hello Randall 

 

The basic DMS is free. The tutorials are also free and the support documentation is available here 

Please Login or Register to see this Hidden Content

 

The Framework is still being supported & Framework will still be updated with Bug fixes.

All software has a lifecycle and we are very much still within the lifecycle of the PageLines Framework.  Our previous product PageLines Platform Pro was still supported two years after the Framework was released. Support was stopped only 6 months ago or so  for Platform Pro. 

The Framework is now available as an open source project on GitHub so it is likely if the community is passionate about keeping FW alive past it's support lifecycle  then this is how it will be done. 

With regards the DMS and client usability-  You have to ability to lock down the elements of the Visual Editor you may not want your clients changing. 

Please Login or Register to see this Hidden Content

Anything else if still the same with regards your clients blogging capabilities, uploading content etc, 

Let us know here on the forum if there are any elements of the DMS we can clarify for you. 



#3 imagineutopia

imagineutopia

    Advocate

  • Members

  • 276 posts
  • LocationKansas City
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 18 October 2013 - 07:03 PM

its  a  shame. everytime I try to make a DMS site I get frustrated and have to move on and do it in pagelines.

 

I keep thinking the software isn't loaded right sometimes. options that should be there like the media library quick upload and select aren't or weren't around.

 

its just such a convoluted mess compared to pagelines. plus that dms coming out basically kicked pagelines in the nuts and broke it is a bummer.

 

but I am hoping to get some time and make a DMS site soon. be a while before I'd trust it to a client site.



#4 greenfly

greenfly

    Advocate

  • Members

  • 3268 posts
  • LocationManchester, England
  • Framework Version:latest
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 18 October 2013 - 07:16 PM

Hello John 

 

if you would like us to jump on your site and take a look for you and see what is not configuring correctly we are more than happy to do this for you. All we ask is you start your own topic with this and i will take a look for you. 

 

The Framework isn't broken, granted things are not quite working in the same way they were previously but everything is working and all functionality is available to you. 



#5 rpacker

rpacker

    Super Member

  • Members
  • 226 posts
  • LocationWashington, DC
  • Framework Version:2.3.5
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 18 October 2013 - 07:31 PM

Thanks everyone for responding, I felt it was important to have a thread for frustrated Framework users, who prefer to stay with this excellent platform rather than spending a lot of precious time having to learn an entirely new system.

 

Framework is very solid, that's the problem. I have only tested DMS, and I'm sure, given many hours I could master it. But why are we being forced to migrate when Framework was so great in the first place? It really doesn't make sense to me.

 

If Pagelines has gradually shifted towards DMS, that would have been one thing. But this radical paradigm shift either forces you to go to the enormous trouble of learning a new system, or waiting a year or two until Framework is no longer supported, and then try and figure out what to do.

 

For me, this represents everything that is wrong with the software industry. Rather than allowing a system to fully mature, and encourage users to grow with the platform, companies feel they have to create the latest and the greatest. This may be good for them, but it is not necessarily good for the community of users who are yanked along for the ride.

 

Sorry if this is harsh, but I am very frustrated by the fact that I am being forced into something I don't want to do. And forced is the operative word: because  I have spent hundreds of hours of work and development to get to where I am in Framework, and then I should have to start all over again with another system?

 

I am an artist, not a software programmer. I prefer to spend my time writing blog posts then having to spend hours and hours learning a new system just because the company felt it needed to move in a new direction.

 

End rant...


  • Martin Bay and helvetika1 like this

#6 Martin Bay

Martin Bay

    Super Member

  • Members
  • 128 posts
  • LocationDenmark
  • Framework Version:Latest :)
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 18 October 2013 - 07:52 PM

I'm also continuing on Framework - it's the best :)


  • greenfly and helvetika1 like this

#7 greenfly

greenfly

    Advocate

  • Members

  • 3268 posts
  • LocationManchester, England
  • Framework Version:latest
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 18 October 2013 - 07:56 PM

Rpacker 

 

I too started out with a system i loved long before i was employed by PageLines and felt very much the same when PageLines moved from Platform Pro to Framework. Before DMS came out i was daunted by the prospect of learning a new system and on a deadline too and then supporting users with the DMS system. But honestly - everything clicked into place all of a sudden. 

 

The changes in server architecture and computing (ipads, mobile browsing etc) mean that the Framework code would have to be totally rewritten at some point in order to support all these changes. The amount of time it would take to change this coupled with the changes users of Framework would see would make the Framework become quickly unusable and ultimately become the new DMS. Approaching all these changes with a new system in my mind is the only way to go. 

 

Honestly, we are not forcing anyone to change. The DMS system though is much more inline with how the industry is moving and reflects changes you will see around the corner. 

 

I encourage you to give DMS a go, and ask for help from us whenever you need it. I am certain once properly configured you will love DMS. 

 

Framework will live for a long time past the point of support. The future is GitHub shaped and gives projects an extended life cycle. 

 

I have to disagree with with the 'problem with the software industry' - the need to keep up with new methods of working, new technology and a new user base means things change and change quicker than you might like. 

 

Bottom line here is we have NOT abandoned the Framework - not at all. All PageLines staff are behind it. 



#8 motionltd

motionltd

    Super Member

  • Members

  • 232 posts
  • LocationLondon
  • Framework Version:2.3.8
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 18 October 2013 - 07:59 PM

I hear you rpacker. I too have invested huge amounts of time in Framework and don't really want to move to DMS. I am trying it now and I'm really struggling with it. Time is so precious I don't have enough of it to learn a whole new system. 

 

I would be happy to pay a subscription to keep Framework running.



#9 arpowers

arpowers

    Founder

  • Administrators
  • 3271 posts
  • LocationSan Francisco, CA
  • Framework Version:2.3
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 18 October 2013 - 08:02 PM

DMS is essentially the same thing as Framework, only its designed to be faster and more intuitive... It still uses many of the original APIs and concepts from 2.0, but solves some serious data handling issues, etc... 

 

We're also iterating DMS fast, 1.1 will be out next week (which improves performance, etc.. )

 

Finally, you guys will see as we get this rolling, the themes that are coming out for DMS will be amazing. None of this was possible with FW.


  • greenfly likes this

#10 rpacker

rpacker

    Super Member

  • Members
  • 226 posts
  • LocationWashington, DC
  • Framework Version:2.3.5
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 18 October 2013 - 08:15 PM

Thanks everyone for your thoughtful responses. I think software development should be more senstive to the needs of users. Such a radical shift from Framework to DMS may be progressive from the standpoint of developers, but for the user, it can present a tremendous hurdle. If DMS is the same thing as Framework, then why do you have to use the new modular interface? Why not give people the option of using the existing Framework tools and others can start using the new ones. That way one could gradually transition from one to the other.

 

The back end of Framework might be the same, but the front end is totally new, and that's where many of live. We are not necessarily coders: we are writers, designers, artists, etc. We want to be able to focus on our creative work, not have to spend hour and hours learning a totally new system, no matter how progressive and technologically great it may be.


  • Martin Bay likes this

#11 Simon_P

Simon_P

    Messer

  • Administrators



  • 8388607 posts
  • LocationDevon
  • Framework Version:2.1.1
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 18 October 2013 - 09:09 PM

 

 

If DMS is the same thing as Framework, then why do you have to use the new modular interface? Why not give people the option of using the existing Framework tools and others can start using the new ones. That way one could gradually transition from one to the other.

We did, 1.0 had a v2 compatibility mode that re-enabled alot of old code/options in the wp-admin area. This was a transition and has been removed in 1.1  



#12 imagineutopia

imagineutopia

    Advocate

  • Members

  • 276 posts
  • LocationKansas City
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 18 October 2013 - 09:37 PM

Hello John 

 

if you would like us to jump on your site and take a look for you and see what is not configuring correctly we are more than happy to do this for you. All we ask is you start your own topic with this and i will take a look for you. 

 

The Framework isn't broken, granted things are not quite working in the same way they were previously but everything is working and all functionality is available to you. 

 

when the new version comes out I'll try it again on a site and see if it goes better.

 

the framework is not what it once was that's for sure. it used to be cake installing new items and sections and its become a convoluted nightmare. I went all over trying to track down where to update the collapser section today. took me three different tries and finally I tracked down the launchpad page again.

 

it would be great if the store was fixed again. I know it was kinda, then it wasn't then I stopped trying.

 

DMS's launch brought the surprise ending of live support and made pagelines harder to use.



#13 Rob

Rob

    One Smart Egg

  • Members
  • 13575 posts
  • LocationEast Coast, USA
  • Framework Version:The Latest, of course
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 19 October 2013 - 03:45 AM

Hi, we're still supporting Framework.  I promise!  I still use it on some of my sites and love it too!   Slowly,  I'm migrating my big site (tens of thousands of posts and pages) to DMS, but moving all my smaller sites into it now.  While I work for PageLines, I tell it like it is, and honestly, it's easy, great, fast to learn, fast to use, and requires hardly any customization (and that's only because I am very finicky).   Seriously, I strongly recommend it, no matter how much I love Framework.

 

We won't be selling anyone short on support for Framework. :)



#14 billstevens

billstevens

    Member

  • Members
  • 14 posts
  • LocationManchester
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 19 October 2013 - 01:10 PM

Hi, we're still supporting Framework.  I promise!  I still use it on some of my sites and love it too!   Slowly,  I'm migrating my big site (tens of thousands of posts and pages) to DMS, but moving all my smaller sites into it now.  While I work for PageLines, I tell it like it is, and honestly, it's easy, great, fast to learn, fast to use, and requires hardly any customization (and that's only because I am very finicky).   Seriously, I strongly recommend it, no matter how much I love Framework.

 

We won't be selling anyone short on support for Framework. :)

I do not want to spend more money to change from a product that I have purchased. Feels like the change is about finding ways to spend more of my money. The free version is not free when you have spent lots of money purchasing previous versions of Pagelines framework. Also, where have all the links and support gone for framework in the store etc. Pagelines launches a new product and "accidentally" loses all the support, Store etc for Framework customers. Poor show all round.



#15 Rob

Rob

    One Smart Egg

  • Members
  • 13575 posts
  • LocationEast Coast, USA
  • Framework Version:The Latest, of course
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 19 October 2013 - 03:00 PM

Bill,

 

I must apologize for your confusion, but this was all announced in July.  The Store had to be replaced following a hacking that took place on July 23 and 24th.  The products that were previously available should be available via

Please Login or Register to see this Hidden Content

 

The support options for Framework were primarily this forum, though for a testing period, we were experimenting with live chat for Plus members.  The volume of contacts via chat were too great and many customers did not get the full experience they deserved.  We abandoned Live Chat as a support method to ensure that our customers get a richer, more in-depth support system, and the actionable answers they can use, via these forums.  To be honest, the answers we were able to give in chat were never as full as the customers needed.  It was only good for quick, simple things, but never sufficient to answer an issue like this, for example.

 

No one at PageLines is forcing anyone to buy or use DMS, even if it is a great product.  We understand everyone's love of Framework, and will continue providing bug fixes and security updates.  But, that said, new products overtake old ones, which is why you're probably not driving a 1953 Edsel.  Software isn't a long-term proposition, as anyone who started with DOS 2.0 knows.  It changes, and old versions just have to be replaced as the technology advances. If it didn't, I'd still be working on an IBM MTST desk computer (it was actually the whole desk, not a desktop).

 

I should add that DMS is available free, and it's feature-rich, though the paid version comes with many extras.  Thousands are using it free, and pleased with it.



#16 rpacker

rpacker

    Super Member

  • Members
  • 226 posts
  • LocationWashington, DC
  • Framework Version:2.3.5
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 19 October 2013 - 06:03 PM

Again, thanks everyone for jumping into this conversation. I was really curious what other Framework users thought about the change, and I can see that I am not alone in feeling frustrated. DMS may be a great product, but it is entirely new way of working, which may satisfy the aspirations of Pagelines, but may not be a confortable way of working for many Framework users. I am not trying to be regressive here, I am all for progress! However, the evolution of Pagelines over the past year: subscription-based, DMS, DMS forum tiered for paying subscribers, video tutorials farmed out to yet another paid subscription (Academy), the list goes on. I understand that Pagelines has a bottom line, but all the changes have really made it difficult for me to continue in this direction and upgrade my site. But I appreciate the feedback from Pagelines staff in this effort to raise some dialogue around the recent changes.


  • Martin Bay likes this

#17 Simon_P

Simon_P

    Messer

  • Administrators



  • 8388607 posts
  • LocationDevon
  • Framework Version:2.1.1
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 19 October 2013 - 06:17 PM

We didnt 'farm out' videos. The academy your referring too is not affiliated with PageLines. A user created the site for users. The forums only has 2 userlevels. Those who have DMS and those that dont, this is so our moderators know who has what, otherwise the dms support forum is just going to be flooded with support requests from people using the free version.



#18 Rob

Rob

    One Smart Egg

  • Members
  • 13575 posts
  • LocationEast Coast, USA
  • Framework Version:The Latest, of course
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 19 October 2013 - 06:27 PM

Randall, et al,

 

As you know, I have one of the biggest websites using any PageLines product. Its disk space is 124Gb.  I know you're very skilled and realize just how big that is.  It scares the heck out of me to convert it to anything, as you can well imagine.  But I'm going forth with it because I believe DMS is, ultimately, much, much easier.

 

The PageLines Academy is a site not owned by, or affiliated with PageLines.  Many such sites popped up after DMS launched. If you're paying any of those sites, that's a free choice, not something we require, nor even recommend officially.  We provide support here in these forums, as you know.   We have always, since this forum was started, provided support in tiers, but always provide support, no matter which tier it may be. 

 

If you take a step back, and see it from a different perspective, the changes we've made have been, in total, for the better of all our customers, including those using Framework.   I hope you'll at least continue testing the free version and believe, wholeheartedly, that you'll find DMS much easier to use.  I concur, it's a different approach, much the same way that the safety match is a different way of starting a fire than rubbing two sticks together.

 

We appeciate all our Framework customers and I assure you, again, support will continue and we are not abandoning you!



#19 motionltd

motionltd

    Super Member

  • Members

  • 232 posts
  • LocationLondon
  • Framework Version:2.3.8
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 29 October 2013 - 02:59 PM

Quick update on my progress with DMS. I have to admit I am liking it the more I learn. There seems to be a plateau of knowledge, once you're there, it all makes sense. Still a few bugs and the Chrome only editing is still a bit annoying, but generally, I get it now!



#20 Danny

Danny

    Is Awesome!

  • Moderators
  • 16392 posts
  • LocationManchester, UK
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 30 October 2013 - 12:16 PM

@

Please Login or Register to see this Hidden Content

- That's great to hear!







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: pagelines, framework