Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

About the move from PL to DMS


  • Please log in to reply
14 replies to this topic

#1 kneops

kneops

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • 95 posts
  • LocationNetherlands
  • Framework Version:2.4.1
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 03 August 2013 - 05:57 PM

Since Andrew suggested to post this in the forum instead of the blog (it was considered spam and not criticism), here is my opinion about the change from PL to DMS:

 

The title of the blog says 'Your Reviews & the DMS Roadmap'. Your reviews points to all the people that commented on the launch and all the troubles with it, I thought. But nothing about those comments. It seems to me that PL was trying to overcome all the criticism by just ignoring it until people got tired of asking questions they didn't like. In the meanwhile my comments were not published anymore. And they were very reasonable and I mention them here once more.

During the last week I posted some replies here and on the forum, no response yet. So I hope I will get some response here, and some answers.

1. I bought the Framework only april 26th. A few weeks later the announcement of DMS. I get no upgrade (except the free version) and in my view there will be no more updates and improvements on PL 2. LIFETIME it said, and soon after that EOL. Imho that is not EOL but DOA. I paid for a year of updates/improvements, and all I got was one small bugfix update. I thought I was joining a nice boat trip, but suddenly I was asked to pay again if I wanted to come along the rest of the way.

2. All the free plugins and sections I could download are gone. Only premiums available now. Still got no answer where to find and download them.

Imho it could have been very simple. Just give all the customers the rest of their year back and we/I are satisfied. After that everyone will pay again for another year or will be gone to another platform, whatever people want.



#2 crazymonkeydefense

crazymonkeydefense

    Member

  • Members
  • 12 posts
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 04 August 2013 - 05:22 AM

Hear, hear! I have written a 'complaints' post on this section of the forum too (no need to rehash it again). You are not alone in your frustrations.

 

I have spent 100's of $ with this company, plus the monthly Plus membership and I can't get any resolution to any of my issues either. At this point I am past all the feeling sorry for Pagelines, their launch blues, hacks etc....just fix it now, or at the very least, work in order of importance to fix paying clients issues etc.

 

Had I not designed two of my most important sites using Pagelines, and that it would take me weeks to re-design the entire thing from ground zero, I would have left Pagelines by now, thrown in the towel, and mark it down to a REALLY bad experience and money flushed down the toilet.

 

As a South African, I am used to possibly the worsed customer service on planet Earth - I never thought a US based company would be this bad. But IMHO this is nothing new, Optimizepress etc al, are pretty much the same when it comes to customer service as well.


  • webmktco and Soraretheorma like this

#3 kneops

kneops

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • 95 posts
  • LocationNetherlands
  • Framework Version:2.4.1
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 04 August 2013 - 09:29 AM

As a South African, I am used to possibly the worsed customer service on planet Earth...

Is it that bad down there? :(

 

I read your comment in this forum and agree. I never experienced something like this before. Lack of communication and priorities and unable to look objectively to what is going on and what decisions they made at the start and unwilling to change their point of view. Stubborn and egocentric where words that came into my mind, although I'm not talking about everyone behind PL. My questions in the forum have always been answered to my satisfaction, although they also pointed out to me that PL is in some ways very limited and restricted. Anyway, I wanted to use PL to create a certain kind of websites quickly, but now I'm not sure I want to stay. This 'move' to DMS has been such a big damper to how I feel about the whole product and company, that I simply don't trust it anymore. And that makes me feel sad and angry as a person. Sure I can still create websites with what I've got, but that was simply not the deal, one year of updates, and I feel very frustrated and powerless. I want simple justice that's all. That's why I'm still here on this forum, but I already purchased Genesis, so it depends on the people behind PL if I will be creating websites with PL and promoting the software in the future or not.


  • imagineutopia likes this

#4 Danny

Danny

    Is Awesome!

  • Moderators
  • 17015 posts
  • LocationManchester, UK
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 04 August 2013 - 10:15 AM

@crazymonkeydefense

What are your issues ?

Also, in terms of bad customer experience, we apologise for any inconvenience you may have experience but this was not intentional and our team worked around the clock to get all these issues resolved as fast as they possibly could.

 

Also, if you want the uber l33t in bad customer experience I suggest moving to the UK, its on epic proportions here.

 

@kneops:

Not sure how you can say we didn't communicate, we created a blog post informing users of the situation. What did you want us to do, create a blog post everyday saying nothing more to update we are still working on it? Doing that would be pointless and a waste of your time. We created a new post when there was something to report.

 

Also the DMS Road Map post is related to DMS and its future. The majority of the users having bad experiences upon DMS launch, were users of PageLines Framework, who were unable to connect to our activation server. Which was related to API.

Granted some users were having issues with DMS but this was again due to the server attacks and not being able to receive their activation key. I haven't seen any negative comments regarding DMS as a product.

 

Regarding your points:

 

1. PageLines Framework and DMS are two completely separate products. However, with the release of DMS, this doesn't indicate that PageLines Framework has reached it's as you say EOL. The only thing that has changed is that PageLines Framework is now feature frozen, but it will still receive maintenance released and big fixes if required. You're still able to create amazing looking websites with PL Framework.

 

2. The API system is currently unavailable, Simon is hard at work to get this fixed, all the free plugins/sections are available here - http://launchpad.pag...api/store_free/

 

 

Is it that bad down there? :(

 

I read your comment in this forum and agree. I never experienced something like this before. Lack of communication and priorities and unable to look objectively to what is going on and what decisions they made at the start and unwilling to change their point of view. Stubborn and egocentric where words that came into my mind, although I'm not talking about everyone behind PL. My questions in the forum have always been answered to my satisfaction, although they also pointed out to me that PL is in some ways very limited and restricted. Anyway, I wanted to use PL to create a certain kind of websites quickly, but now I'm not sure I want to stay. This 'move' to DMS has been such a big damper to how I feel about the whole product and company, that I simply don't trust it anymore. And that makes me feel sad and angry as a person. Sure I can still create websites with what I've got, but that was simply not the deal, one year of updates, and I feel very frustrated and powerless. I want simple justice that's all. That's why I'm still here on this forum, but I already purchased Genesis, so it depends on the people behind PL if I will be creating websites with PL and promoting the software in the future or not.

 

I apologise that you feel that way, what can we do to make you happy ?

 

Let me know in your reply and I will see what I can do for you. 



#5 kneops

kneops

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • 95 posts
  • LocationNetherlands
  • Framework Version:2.4.1
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 04 August 2013 - 10:51 AM

@Danny

 

First of all, I'm really not a person that complains a lot. Actually I think this is the first time with software I purchased.

 

About communication:

Communication is more than leaving a voicemail message stating that work is being done, especially when someone had to notice all the messages left by customers and no one replied to them and kept them informed.

 

I haven't seen any negative comments regarding DMS as a product.

Incredible. Negative comments were and are all over the place, here at PL and on the internet, from new and old customers. Not replying to negative comments and removing comments with criticism and calling them spam is indeed a way to keep thinking everyone finds DMS amazing fantastic and awesome.

 

The only thing that has changed is that PageLines Framework is now feature frozen, but it will still receive maintenance released and big fixes if required

To my understanding that's EOL. No more development, just fixing problems that were not noticed before. While I bought the product because I wanted to be part of the development/road map etc. etc. But like I said, that boat has gone somewhere else.

 

I'm sorry too, but I realise there is no way you could make be happy. That's past tense I'm afraid. And I'm not going to spend more time in learning and working with software that is feature frozen, unless I pay to go along the other way.

 

I'm out of here.



#6 Rob

Rob

    One Smart Egg

  • Members
  • 13575 posts
  • LocationEast Coast, USA
  • Framework Version:The Latest, of course
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 10 August 2013 - 02:46 PM

@kneops  When any new product is launched, we always provide some leading information well before the product is due to be released.  That's how our hacker knew to tear down our site.  The fact that DMS was going to be released was out in the Web at least three weeks before release. 

 

No where in our documentation, marketing materials or anything else we released, did we suggest that Framework is going to be deprecated immediately, but the reaction was immediate, that we're destroying sites, tearing down developers' businesses, ruining lives -- all of which was pure fantasy, overreaction and candidly, silly.  And I'm not saying this was from you, so please don't be offended.  It came from many people.

 

Also when new products are developed and released, there will always be people who go on the attack about it, doing nothing other than complain. Again, I'm not saying this was you. 

 

I own the largest site using Framework.  More than 250,000 posts, and over 10,000 pages.  The site has been up for 17 years.  For me to convert from Framework to DMS is, without hesitation, a massive undertaking and a headache of gargantuan proportions.  I'm not converting immediately because of that, but I've set up a development subsite and testing, setting up templates (as needed) and going through things methodically, which is what smart developers or site designers do.  Too many, and again, not speaking of you, rushed into conversion of their sites the second DMS came out, failing to read the docs, test the product, or just kick the tires.  Some of them ranted, raved and cried the blues. How could we help them? That was their decision.

 

But in that, the solution we offered was "go back to Framework, which still works".   Please believe me, we don't, historically, deprecate products in the way some have suggested.  If you go to WP.org, you can still get Platform and Framework (the lite editions).  And though there are few here who remember Platform, we still answer questions about it every week.

 

I totally understand your frustrations, and like Danny, apologize.  There was a reason for Andrew's decision about Twitter - and it's simple.  One complaint, no matter how valid, will spread in a format like Twitter, turning a product release into a communal complaint session.  I'd have done the same, and I am pretty sure that in his position, you too would have done the same.   And so you don't think you're alone, I've made dozens of suggestions to Andrew and the management team which are often brushed aside.  Yes, it's darn frustrating, but they have their priorities and when you posted, his  priority was trying to get everything back up and running so that the launch could go forward.  I don't think he was dismissing your complaints or suggesting they were invalid, which is why he suggested posting here.

 

If you're serious about being 'outta here',  let me know and I'll rush my billing team to process your refund.  But I hope you'll consider what I've said here and understand our position.  I'd hate to see you go!



#7 kneops

kneops

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • 95 posts
  • LocationNetherlands
  • Framework Version:2.4.1
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 10 August 2013 - 07:11 PM

Hello Rob,

 

Thanks for explaining. I understand, and perhaps in the future I will return, but not now. Too many things happened during that launch I didn't like. I mentioned them in the blogs and here on the forum and don't want to repeat them again. I don't want to keep sounding negative anymore and I already left it behind me, so you're reply was a (pleasant) surprise. Thanks for that, and perhaps I'll join PL again someday.

 

If a (partial) refund is possible, yes please! Do you need any information from me for this?



#8 Rob

Rob

    One Smart Egg

  • Members
  • 13575 posts
  • LocationEast Coast, USA
  • Framework Version:The Latest, of course
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 13 August 2013 - 01:20 PM

Hi,

 

I just checked with our billing team and they informed me that you purchased Framework in April and haven't purchased DMS.  If that's not true, or you used a different account, write to hello@pagelines.com with the receipt information. Otherwise, there's nothing eligible for refund, even partially, I'm sorry to say.



#9 kneops

kneops

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • 95 posts
  • LocationNetherlands
  • Framework Version:2.4.1
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 13 August 2013 - 01:35 PM

That was what the whole discussion was about :) I ofcourse did not 'upgrade' to DMS because I felt I was left behind with the purchase of a DOA product called PL. Ofcourse questions about it will be answered in the coming few years, and necessary bug fix updates will come now and then, but no more development of PL. While I payed for the product in the strong belief and trust that I bought something that I would be sure part of for at least one year, on support, updates AND development! Not so... Very clever to state that I would be part of free updates for a year of the 2.x branche, and then change to product to DMS. Very clever indeed...

 

I'm really out of here, foregood. I already made the switch to Genesis, and if I will ever choose to buy a 'DMS' again, it will never never be Pagelines.



#10 Rob

Rob

    One Smart Egg

  • Members
  • 13575 posts
  • LocationEast Coast, USA
  • Framework Version:The Latest, of course
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 13 August 2013 - 08:12 PM

I'm sorry but there seems to be so much misinterpretation going on here. 

 

In point of fact, your purchase in April was not 'DOA' on arrival. That's not simply a misnomer, it's patently false.

 

Framework is here; going to remain here, and still is fully functional.  This continued berating of DMS and claims of Framework's demise are nothing but pure fantasy and the outrageous balderdash of a number of people who won't accept facts.

 

Framework will be well more than 18 months before we declare its EOL. Just the same as it took 18 months to deprecate PlatformPro after Framework was released.



#11 bsocial

bsocial

    Member

  • Members
  • 13 posts
  • Framework Version:2.4.2
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 17 August 2013 - 04:47 PM

In May/June I purchased PL Pro @ $200 plus $19 / month support since. Would you please take a few minutes and explain exactly what this $200 covers? Specifically, can I expect real product development moving forward, not just maintenance? If the answer is yes then please share a roadmap of future development plans for the PL Pro product. Failure to provide a roadmap for PL Pro development will be understood to mean that their is no future development plan. 

 

I will be requesting a full refund for the following reasons:
 

1. The product no longer works as advertised. To this day I can not login to the store or support sections. This has been going on for two weeks.

2. DMS is clearly going to receive the vast majority of development resources which means that PL Pro will be a second tier product (at best).

3. There is no easy migration path to DMS for PL Pro users - this is an insane business decision. How you thought you could do this without alienating your customer base is beyond me. Like many here I am left feeling that you don't care. 

4. Your system has been completely compromised and your backup plan was totally inadequate. To date I have not seen an adequate explanation of what when wrong. In short, I have lost all confidence in the security of the product and company. 

5. You did NOTHING incentivize or make whole existing PL Pro users. Users who have been on PL Pro for less than six months should be offered some form of compensation. You could have offered a pro-rated refund, 6 months free premium support, store credits, ANYTHING. 

 

PL does not seem to realize that the consequence of their actions is real damage to clients using PL software; damage that can be measured in dollars. PL will be very lucky to come out of this without legal action by clients who have been damaged due to your negligence. Think about a developer with 20 or 30 clients, all using PL Pro. How is that developer supposed to explain the need to re-engineer their site for the DMS product or the fact that PL Pro is now a legacy product which very limited future development prospects? What happens if that developer looses 10 clients or if clients demand that the upgrade work to DMS be done for free? Who is going to absorb those losses? 

 

I don't mean to be rude here but you folks really need to take some courses in customer management. It is NEVER EVER a good idea to publicly berate customers. It makes you look bad, enrages the customer base, and only serves to make matters worse. You are seeing the results here. The best course of action is to assure customers that 1) you understand their frustration, 2) you are doing everything in your power to rectify your mistakes, and 3) do something to make the customer whole. You should never engage in name calling, blame shifting, or otherwise ignore legitimate complaints. 



#12 bsocial

bsocial

    Member

  • Members
  • 13 posts
  • Framework Version:2.4.2
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 17 August 2013 - 04:50 PM

Would you please post an address for legal correspondence as well as an email address where I can send in my request for a full refund. For legal correspondence I will need a name and a physical address. 

 

Thanks.



#13 Danny

Danny

    Is Awesome!

  • Moderators
  • 17015 posts
  • LocationManchester, UK
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 18 August 2013 - 11:33 AM

@bsocial

 

1. PageLines Framework does work and the issue you have is effecting everyone, not just you. Even I can't login correctly. However, this will be fixed in time.

2. DMS is our latest product and of course will receive the majority of our development. However, PageLines Framework is still supported and will still receive updates, its just now feature frozen.

3. There is a v2 compatibility option specifically for Framework users, this compatibility option makes the migration to DMS much easier. You need to remember that DMS and Framework are two completely different products, so installing and activating DMS is like installing any third party theme. Your site will take on the default style/layout of that theme.

 

We do not want to alienate our users, migrating to DMS from PageLines Framework can take 5 minutes to a couple of hours depending on your sites customization. 

 

4. Our servers were attacked, all files were removed. We had a number of backups and backups of the backups. A few hours before the launch of DMS, all files, services were back online. Then our servers were hacked again. This lead us to believe that the hacker(s) may have root access. We then had to make the hard decision to move to a completely new server. We also made the decision that our API system needed rewriting for security reasons. This is where the issues for most users comes from, as this API controls our services such as PL Framework in-store connection, updates for store products and so forth.

As you can imagine, our devs have been working crazy hours to resolve this and the majority is back up and running. We apologise profusely for the inconvenience caused by this, but please be aware this wasn't our fault. If hackers target your system and put enough time and effort in, they will hack you, thats the world we live in, Sony, Apple to name a few have had their systems hacked.

So no system is hack-proof. However, we have taken more steps to improve our security and reliability.

 

5. If you're unhappy, we are unhappy. Contact our helpdesk and our accounts/billing team may be able to make you happy again. We do not want any PL user to be unhappy or feel mistreated. PageLines believes in karma.

 

No developer with 20-30 clients needs to contact their client and inform them that they need to re-engineer their website from Framework to DMS. DMS isn't mandatory, we recommend it but the decision to use/purchase DMS is entirely up to you guys. PageLines Framework is still an awesome tool to build great looking websites, it's just that DMS is better in every way.

 

All products eventually have an end of life and are replaced with a newer, better product. You only have to look at the phone market for this. However, like the phone market, just because the iPhone500 comes our doesn't mean the iPhone499 is now obsolete and you have to upgrade.

 

We don't think you're being rude, we understand some users are disappointed with some of the issues at the moment. Like I said, contact our helpdesk or me directly at 

 

danny at pagelines dot com

 

With your issues and I will try and resolve them for you. However, with it being Sunday, my response will most likely be Monday now.

Also, we take criticism on the chin, but also to heart. Rob's comments aren't that of someone who is bad a customers services but of someone who loves PageLines and helping it's users. He nor any of the PageLines staff never intend to come across as arrogant or purposely annoy, aggravate you. Its quite the opposite, drop me or our helpdesk an email and we can try to address your issues and make your PageLines experience a happy one!

 

 

 

 

 

We provide a 30 day refund policy, after that I'm afraid a refund is not possible. H



#14 kneops

kneops

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • 95 posts
  • LocationNetherlands
  • Framework Version:2.4.1
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 18 August 2013 - 11:33 AM

When there will be no more development, I consider that DOA and not what I expected when buying the product, just like bsocial says. He has some very strong and very logical points.



#15 Rob

Rob

    One Smart Egg

  • Members
  • 13575 posts
  • LocationEast Coast, USA
  • Framework Version:The Latest, of course
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 19 August 2013 - 01:30 AM

@kneops

 

While I understand and sympathize with everyone's frustrations let me politely point out that neither Danny nor I are the management nor the decision makers in this company and have less influence on such issues.  These continued long debates are going to go nowhere with postings to the forum.  We can't change things, whether we agree with you and bsocial or not. 

 

This is a technical support forum, and not a communal complaint discussion board.  So, please, EVERYONE, not just you. Stop the complaints because you're not going to get results from the moderators.  All you're doing is slowing down our ability to answer actual support issues. If I must, I will close down and lock every complaint topic in this forum because it's just getting out of hand.